The Pink Flamingo :: I Thought Catholics Were Christians

NOTE: I am not trying to offend anyone with this article, and especially not Southern Baptists. Baptists, Catholics, Episcopalians, Methodists, Presbyterians, etc. are all CHRISTIANS. It is the height of arrogance to assume (ASS U ME) that because a person is a Catholic or Episcopalian that we are not Christians and are no less devout in our beliefs that someone who is Southern Baptist. I am greatly offended by the remarks of the President of the Southern Baptist Convention and his automatic assumption that, just because Rudy Giuliani is Catholic, that he is not a Christian.

UPDATE: GIULIANI AT THE FRC
From Eye on 2008

"...Christians and Christianity is all about inclusiveness, It is built around the most profound act of love in history. .. Spreading a message of love and hope and faith… Administer to sick and the needy. It is the love that the first Christians displayed that first brought thousands and then millions...."

""My belief in God and my reliance on his guidance is at the core of who I am."

"Religion is about love, inclusion and forgiveness. It is about salvation. … If we expect perfection from our political leaders, we will be disappointed."

WHAT WOULD JESUS DO?

This has all the earmarks of an organized "Christian" conservative hit on Rudy Giuliani.

Ethics Daily

“…Converting Catholics to Christianity is rooted in the widely held belief among fundamentalist Baptists that Catholicism is a false faith. One SBC leader, Al Mohler, president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, even said on "Larry King Live" that "I believe the Roman church is a false church and it teaches a false gospel."…”

In other words, Catholics aren’t Christian enough for the President of the Southern Baptist Convention! I suppose neither are we Episcopalians because we are kind to those dreaded “homosexuals”. I am absolutely furious. At the end of the posting I have a list of the blogs that are spreading this do-do. They are all not supporting Rudy Giuliani.

THE "CHRISTIAN" HIT

“The president of the Southern Baptist Convention says he offered to pray with Rudy Giuliani to accept Christ as his savior, but the Republican presidential candidate declined. Frank Page, pastor of First Baptist Church in Taylors, S.C., recently told a group of ministers in Oklahoma the biggest surprise of his 16 months leading the nation's largest Protestant body is the contact it brings with politicians. Page said he has "met with almost all the presidential candidates" and has pledged that his "singular purpose" in those meetings would be to "tell them about Jesus." "When I spent two solid hours in a private meeting with Rudy Giuliani, I shared Christ with him so much that at the end of that two hours I said, 'Rudy, I'm not going to leave this place unless I give you an opportunity to pray with me to receive Jesus as your savior. Would you do that with me Rudy?'" Page recounted. "He said, 'No, Frank, I'm not ready to do that. My daddy knows Jesus like that, but I'm not ready for that.'"Page said he gave the former New York mayor his cell phone number and invited him to call "any time, day or night." "You just call me, and we'll talk about Jesus, Rudy," Page recalled the conversation. "You're a great leader, Rudy, and you may be the president of our country some day. But you'll never be the leader you need to be unless you have Jesus as the heart of who you are."…”

Can I ask a question, Who the H-E-Double-Toothpick does this man think he is? If Frank Page had asked the same question of me I would have probably tell him to go to hell. I think Giuliani showed great restraint. Page had no business asking those questions. And - if I told him to mind his own bees-wax, he would be saying the same thing about me. I'll tell you something else. Bill Richardson and I have a mutual friend who is a very strong Christian. If she says Richardson is a Christian then he is. And she says he is.

Recently, Page wrote the following,

“…Yet another question I often am asked is: What has been my greatest surprise? The answer to this is that I have been deeply surprised by the amount of contact I have had with secular politicians.

The timing of the presidential election has coincided with my time as president of the SBC. Add to that the fact that I pastor a church in South Carolina, which has one of the first presidential primaries, no doubt has added to this phenomenon. Please pray for me as I continue to meet with persons such as Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton and Bill Richardson. I already have spent time with leaders such as John McCain, Mike Huckabee and Rudy Giuliani. I have spoken on the phone with persons such as Mitt Romney.

While I do not endorse a presidential candidate as president of the Southern Baptist Convention, nor as pastor of a local church, I am attempting to use this opportunity to speak to all of these persons about their personal relationship with our Lord Jesus Christ. I pray that I will be able to present a positive message to each one of them….”

Now I know why I am so constantly annoyed by the “Christian” right. Who died and made Frank Page God? This is disgusting. What is also so disgusting is the fact that our good "Christian" conservatives aren't bothering to go beyond the headline and check out what Page thinks about Catholics, which is deplorable.

When I jumped the Southern Baptist ship and became a very proud Episcopalian, we were taught that our faith was stated and defined in the use of creeds. I am quoting from the Catholic Encyclopedia

“…The principal creeds of the Catholic Church, The Apostles', Athanasian, and the Nicene, are treated in special articles which enter into the historical details and the content of each. The liturgical use of the Creed is also explained in a separate article. For the present purpose it is chiefly important to indicate the function of the creed in the life of religion and especially in the work of the Catholic Church. That the teachings of Christianity were to be cast in some definite form is evidently implied in the commission given the Apostles (Matthew 28:19-20). Since they were to teach all nations to observe whatsoever Christ had commanded, and since this teaching was to carry the weight of authority, not merely of opinion, it was necessary to formulate at last the essential doctrines. Such formulation was all the more needful because Christianity was destined for all men and for all ages. To preserve unity of belief itself was quite clearly stated. The creed, therefore, is fundamentally an authoritative declaration of the truths that are to be believed….”

THE NICEAN CREED (Episcopal BCP)

We believe in one God,
    the Father, the Almighty,
    maker of heaven and earth,
    of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
    the only Son of God,
    eternally begotten of the Father,
    God from God, Light from Light,
    true God from true God,
    begotten, not made,
    of one Being with the Father.
    Through him all things were made.
    For us and for our salvation
        he came down from heaven:
    by the power of the Holy Spirit
        he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
        and was made man.
    For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
        he suffered death and was buried.
        On the third day he rose again
            in accordance with the Scriptures;
        he ascended into heaven
            and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
        and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
    who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
    With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
    He has spoken through the Prophets.
    We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
    We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
    We look for the resurrection of the dead,
        and the life of the world to come. Amen.

THE CATHOLIC VERSION

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through Him all things were made. For us men and our salvation He came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit, He was born of the Virgin Mary , and became man. For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate; He suffered, died, and was buried. On the third day He rose again in fulfillment of the scriptures: He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son, He is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

THE BAPTIST FAITH & MESSAGE
Now check out the 2000 Baptist Version.
Evidently the Southern Baptist Convention does not believe in using Creeds.

“Expert: Dr. Tim Gladu

Date: 9/18/2007
Subject: Trinitarian

Question
QUESTION: Today a member of the Episcopal Church said to me, "Catholics, Episcopalians and Lutherans are the only trinitarians".
I grew up Baptist. I want to know what Baptists believe concerning the trinity. I know they don't use the creeds in church. But do they believe the Nicene creed?..that in the trinity all three are co-equal?

ANSWER: Jill,

This is the first time I have seen this word use. There is no where in the Bible where the term Trinity is used. This is something we use to describe God. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are equal and one. We may have a hard time understanding that, but God should be a hard concept for us to get. he is the creator and we are the creation. God needs to be hard to understand. I want a God that is all powerful and that supernatural being that I really do not understand. The baptists do not recite any ritual like the orthodox religions do. We try really hard to stay away from anything that is a ritual that can get to the point that you are just doing it to do it and it does not really mean anything. Baptists only have baptism, the Lords supper as something that we do, because they are both in the Bible and so we practice them. I did look the Nicene creed and it does appear that it is recited by Catholics and other religions that are similar in nature. Most of the evangelicals do not have rituals that are practiced except The Lords supper. I hope this helps answer a question and don't hesitate to ask more.

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Yes, I understand that the word "trinity" isn't in the bible. I was questioning the statement that was made to me that Catholics, Episcopalians and Lutherans are the only ones that believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are equal. I thought that most protestant denominations believed that they are equal...which is what was declared/stated in the Nicene Creed. As you know, the reason for the Nicene Creed was to decide once and for all what the church believed concerning the nature of Christ. The church formalized, put on paper what they believed. I think whether the protestant denominations use the creeds or not they probably believe what is written in them?

Last winter I was attending a Baptist Bible study. I asked my teacher about the creeds. I told her I grew up Baptist and all the years I attended church...I never saw or even heard the creeds mentioned. I asked her if our church believed in the creeds. Her answer was, "the creeds are scriptual but we don't use them, we use the bible. I understand that the reformers wanted to get back to the basics...and that we (Baptists)use the Bible. In the last ten years I have been to alot of churches..it is educational...plus I have done alot of reading...so I am more knowledgeable. So I was surprised when a man last Sunday made that remark to me.
Getting back to the Nicene Creed...didn't some people believe that Jesus proceeded from the Father? which would not make Him co equal. Also, there were other heresies. Anyway, I didn't comment when that remark was made to me...I came home and did some research on the Internet and then emailed you my question.”

WHY BAPTISTS DON’T USE THE CREEDS

“…It is ironic that Campbell’s slogan, "No creed but the Bible," has become a shibboleth of Baptist identity among many of the denominational descendants of those who stoutly opposed it in Campbell’s day. SBC conservatives have much history on their side when they argue for a robust Baptist confessionalism, but they depart from the historic Baptist pattern when they restrict their doctrinal concern to the single issue of biblical inerrancy. The early Baptist confessions were much richer and full-orbed. For example, the English Baptist confession of 1679 reproduced the Apostles’, Nicene, and Athanasian creeds, declaring that all three "ought thoroughly to be received and believed." "For we believe that they may be proved by most undoubted authority of Holy Scripture and are necessary to be understood of all Christians."

Still, Baptists never advocated credalism. Throughout their history, Baptists of all persuasions have been ardent supporters of religious liberty, opposing state-imposed religious conformity and the attendant civil sanctions associated therewith. Believing God alone is the Lord of the conscience, Baptists deny that civil magistrates have any legitimate authority to regulate or coerce the internal religious life of voluntary associations. Baptists are non-credal in another sense as well: they deny that any humanly constructed doctrinal statement can be equal to, much less elevated above, Holy Scripture. But this principle, sacred to Baptists through the ages, is fully compatible with voluntary, conscientious adherence to an explicit doctrinal standard, precisely the issue at stake in the controversy with Campbell. All confessional traditions are liable to lapse into legalism, a charge SBC moderates have leveled against conservatives, sometimes with just cause. But confessionless Christianity poses an even greater danger. Forsaking the distilled wisdom of the past makes every man’s hat his own church.

If Campbell’s ideal was to reestablish the true New Testament church, Landmarkism asserted that Baptist churches had maintained unbroken continuity through the ages. There was no need to restore the true church; Baptists had never lost it. In this view, Baptist churches were the only true churches that had ever existed in the world, all others being mere human "societies" or apostate deviations from the Baptist norm….”

AND MORE

“…"In other words, we believe that one of the most pressing issues on the Baptist agenda at the beginning of the second century of the Baptist World Alliance and its witness to the world is recovery of the connection of Baptists to the ancient tradition that they share in common with all other Christians," he said."At the same time, we believe that one obstacle to such a recovery is a misunderstanding, widespread among non-fundamentalist Baptists, of the nature and function of such ancient ecumenical creeds as the Apostles' Creed and the 'Nicene' Creed, which summarize and communicate this ancient tradition that Baptists share in common with all other Christians."…”

AN EPISCOPALIAN MINI-RANT
Read the comments here then start putting things in perspectives. When I was taking my confirmation class, we were taught that the Episcopal Church is like a three legged stool – Scripture, Reason, & Tradition. Obviously that’s not good enough. This whole smear on Giuliani really frosts my cookies, quite honestly. It has nothing to do with anything "Christian" and everything to do with another way for the ultra right conservatives to try and take out Giuliani and damage him in the eyes of "social" conservatives. First they threaten a Third Party movement against him. When it appears as no one is really interested, they are trying another tactic, and that's not very "Christian" of them.

NOW – WHAT DOES RUDY BELIEVE?

“…Mayor Rudolph Giuliani caught a glimpse of the Fire Department's chaplain, Father Mychal Judge. ";Pray for us,"; the mayor said, reaching out to grab the chaplain's hand as the two raced past each other in the chaos. ";I always do,"; replied Father Judge. ";I always pray for you.";

It was the last time Mr. Giuliani would see his close friend and spiritual adviser. Judge was killed minutes later as he administered last rites to a firefighter. The chaplain was just one of many personal friends among the casualties, which the mayor summed up for the stunned nation simply as ";more than we can bear.";

That calm, resolute, sensitive leader who emerged on Sept. 11, 2001, transformed the combative, operatic, and unpopular lame-duck mayor into New York's Churchill in a baseball cap. On the strength of that feat and his career as a crime-fighting, bureaucrat-busting reformer, Giuliani is staking his bid for the presidency.

At the core of his public life has been a private faith: faith in God, the American spirit, the value of hard work, and, unapologetically, in himself. Born and raised a Roman Catholic, educated in rigorous parochial schools, Giuliani says he even seriously considered becoming a priest ";at least twice."; But the thrice-married former prosecutor now declines to talk about his religious beliefs, calling them a private affair.

God, though, is another matter. On the campaign trail, he drops frequent references to the Almighty, even crediting God with preparing him to cope with 9/11 by guiding him to a book deal to write about leadership. ";It was as if God provided an opportunity to design a course in leadership just when I needed it most,"; he writes in his book, aptly named ";Leadership."; As for faith, he believes in America's founding ideals. In a Monitor interview he called them a ";secular religion.";

";Where do our rights come from? Most Americans believe they come from God,"; he says in a conference room overlooking Times Square in the office of Giuliani Partners, the consulting firm he founded. ";I mean the really basic ones: the idea that all people are created equal, that human rights are enormously important, that people should select their own leaders. And they're not just ours. They've been put there for everyone.";…”

A MINI RANT
My question: Is this a “Christian” conservative hit on Rudy? It sure looks that way to me. The most annoying factor of all of this is no one has bothered to look beyond the surface, as usual, and explore whether or not the President of the Southern Baptist Convention is just plain old anti-Catholic. It sure appears that way to me. Funny how no one is questioning if Mitt Romney, a member of the LDS Church is a Christian. I think this is just another way for the religious right to take a hit at Giuliani.
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